Wednesday, January 09, 2008

Indiana Voter ID Fight

Guests on CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight included

Tom Fisher, solicitor general

Ted Shaw NAACP

Get the transcript

PS: the back and forth was interesting between Fisher and Shaw.

Dobbs appears to support the idea of a Voter-ID. But we must convince this independent populist that a photo-identification voter registration card that contains a permanent social security number is an affront to the rights we inherently possess.

See the comments section on this site, Net the Truth Online, for more on this issue.

Under no circumstances do I support a Voter-Photo-Id card which contains the permanent social security number of the individual.

I believe a photo-id may help to prevent voter-fraud as was demonstrated by students who were able to vote twice in an election in different states, using their own names, and similar attempts to use the names of deceased have been attempted in absentee voting particularly.

States should immediately clean up their voter registration databases of deceased persons and those who have moved to another state, permanently.

As the demonstration by the students shows, however, citizens who retain one permanent address still have the ability to register to vote in another state under different state guidelines for such.

The students demonstrated they could use the absentee ballot process in their home state to cast a vote, and then vote in-person in another state where they are studying.

This shows us all that something must be done to curb anything of the sort from happening again.

A photo-voter-id card could help prevent voter fraud.

But my suggestion is for a random number, one time use, to be stamped on the voter's id card. The number would expire after that election cycle.

This way there is no permanent number connected with anyone's voter registration card which includes the indivual's name and face.

I've objected locally when I changed my voter registration for a state election to vote in the Primary election for governor. I've objected when I went to renew my expired driver's license to my social security number being on it.

But I let them do it.

I won't let them put my name, my face, and my social security number on a voter registration card.

I will be among those who fight against that.

Still, the photo-ID with the safeguard of a random number to be used for that election only could work to prevent voter fraud.

It happens, and even though studies may show it doesn't happen in large numbers, even one case of voter-fraud waters down all of our votes and all of our rights.

As for the absentees and the potential for abuse. States have to again purge databases in the local counties of names which should not remain because the person is deceased, or moved out of the state, permanently changing their residency.

The problem occurs with many states permitting easy access to a driver's license and thereby the motor-voter law kicks in and a person cannot be denied access to voter registration when attempting to acquire a driver's license.

This is a rampant problem.

A suggestion brought up a few years back was to have the requests for absentee ballots numbered in some way. That didn't wash because the state doesn't want to abuse privacy rights which might connect a voter to a private ballot.

Something must be done to curb absentee ballot fraud attempts.

Maybe it's citizen volunteers who take an oath to help out at the election bureaus and who are responsible for checking the validity of the registration status of absentees.

In the case of the students demonstrating the potential to abuse the process of absentees, states might pick up on the random number at the polls.

As for absentees, again, once an absentee ballot comes in and before it is opened, a random number could be assigned to the outer envelope.

These are to be removed at the precinct, and set aside. The absentees are then to be scrambled so the way a voter voted cannot be known.

With the random number assigned back at the election bureau to that absentee voter's data, it will be known that person already voted by absentee.

A shared database nationwide would be used, but again, no permanent social security numbers should be on a voter-registration card with photograph.

That is un-American. It is just like a national identification card, which I oppose strongly.

(Net the Truth Online)

Voter Fraud at Colleges
A Common Occurrence?
Lisa Dietrich
Issue date: 12/4/00 Section: Features

Marquette University in Wisconsin was in the national news because some students admitted to voting as many as four times. The Marquette Tribune, the student newspaper of the university, conducted a survey of 1000 of their students. Nearly two out of every ten students surveyed voted more than once, and some of them voted as many as four times. One hundred seventy-four of the students voted at least twice, 26 voted three times, and 13 voted four times. Out of these students, three voted for cartoon characters, 57 for themselves, 76 for friends, and 35 for family.

Although most of these students were guided by a misdirected sense of humor when voting numerous times, this is a very serious offense. Each of these students, instead of voting for fake candidates, could have cast multiple votes for a single candidate, which potentially could have had an effect on the county and the state's vote, and ultimately the country's decision.

Most students who voted more than once said that they took advantage of the absentee ballot system. Ninety-one students said that they voted absentee in their home state, and voted again in Wisconsin. Others cast multiple ballots in Wisconsin alone.

Photo ID at Polls Could Prevent Fraud

By: Seth Cooper
Seattle Post-Intelligencer
October 19, 2004

...Recent voter drives have produced hundreds of thousands of new registrants--a valuable expansion of democratic participation. But thousands of registrations are suspicious enough to have provoked investigations by election authorities. Officials in states such as Pennsylvania, Florida and Ohio report organized delivery of voter cards for people whose addresses don't exist or who moved away.

Universities have reached a point of political self-righteousness where some students boast openly of plans to vote twice: by absentee ballot in their home state and also in the state of their school. This is clearly illegal. Cheaters dilute ballot choices of honest voters...


See website Extemporaneous Discourse


Todd Dugdale said...

Under these proposed rules, I would have been deprived of my right to vote. Some years ago, I moved into a new apartment in November. It takes six weeks (at least) for a new ID to arrive by mail, so even if I had gone down to the courthouse the very day I signed the lease, I would not have had a state-issued photo ID to present at the polls on November 4. I didn't even have a utility bill yet; who would four days after moving in? I had someone who was registered vouch for me at the polls, which would not be allowed under these new laws.

Of course, I could have travelled back to my old state and voted illegally under false pretenses with my state-issued photo ID. So how does this prevent fraud again? I would have been allowed to vote in a state I didn't even live in, but not allowed to vote where I did live because an ID couldn't arrive in time.

Net the Truth Online said...

Thank you for posting.

All states were required under the Help America Act to adopt a procedure for those who could not "demonstrate" current voter registration status, at the polls on election day.

Please read that carefully - current voter registration status.

The procedure to address these situations is use of a paper ballot called the "provisional ballot."

According to

30 states and the District of Columbia require provisional ballots to be cast in the correct precinct to be counted

So according to that information, Indiana is among those 30 states.

A provisional ballot should be provided to you in the instance you described. Even if you could not produce a "state-issued photo id" at the polling place should the new voter ID law take effect, you and anyone else should be afforded the "provisional ballot" if there is some question of your current voter registration status.

Please look into this in your state.

If you know of this beforehand, and others know of this beforehand, then you are taking responsibility for what happens election day in the event officials don't have your name in the local district precinct, and you haven't yet obtained a state-issued photo-id through the mail.

In your anecdote, you say that it takes at least 6 weeks for the id to arrive by mail. That wouldn't matter if your name and pertinent info is in the county voter registration database.

That is county versus precinct registry.

The election precinct poll workers would have to make a call to the election department should there be a question to determine whether you are in the database for the county.

the new name may not have yet made it to the precinct registry or poll book though it should given use of computerized databases.

Still, even in that case, the name should be in the county registry.

Look into the laws in your state as notes

If the name isn't in the "county" voter registration database, but you DID register to vote either in person, request by mail, or at the department of motor vehicles or any other number of places for new voters to request voter registration, or there is some snafu, still the election officials have no option than to find you are not registered in the state.

Even with that, in a "federal" election, there is a procedure for you to utilize an emergency balloting process like the "provisional ballot" right there at the polling place.

Please attempt to find out what the laws are regarding such as I've mentioned, and for municipal, state, and federal elections.

Unless you informed officials in the old state to remove your name from their voter registry, your name would remain until they obtained some communication or documentation of your change of address to another state.

Historically, it's more likely your name would remain on their database even after your (hope doesn't happen) death.

State by state the voter registries are outdated and over-inflated, consisting of deceased names, and names of people who have moved out of the state.

How does the voter-id prevent fraud again?

The problem is that even with the provisional ballot as a means to prevent disenfranchisment, it is possible - and more than likely - for an individual to remain registered in an old state, and registered in another state at the same time.

It could be possible for efforts to be made to use someone's name in one state, using the absentee ballot process, and the person would never suspect, that is, if the person is alive.

see articles which reference college students' successful double voting.

As for the specific photo-id -

Let me tackle that this way as your face is staring back at me. I'm imagining a name and number imbedded across the glasses.

For all I know, somebody in this same state has shown up at the polling place using my maiden name from college days which has yet to be removed from the local voter registration rolls in that locality and been able to vote because they didn't have to show a current photo ID of me, or them.

As all would have to show a photo-id at the polls and facial recognition would surely be used to capture those on the terrorist watch list, this would also go a long way to prevent those on the terrorist watch list from voting when they're here on student visas.

OK Todd, you can see where this is going, I'm in that kinda mood today and those embedded details of who you are flash in my imagination.

I know this. Voter fraud has happened at the polling place - students have proven this can be done and was successfully done. If they didn't go public we would never have known.

Now that we know, we must be among those who are willing to make every effort towards it never happening again.

If that means my local county will put my face with my name on my voter registration card, then I am willing to have that done.

Just don't put my social security number on there - well darn, they already have done with the motor voter law.

Even though I objected when I registered to vote in a different party, they went ahead and they used my social security number.

So on my voter registration card with my name is my social security number.

I let them do it. Yes I did. After all, it is my right to vote, and we have all of us determined that THE STATE handles this right. This state determined they could put the social security number on my new voter registration card, and I let them do it because I want to vote.

So now am I willing to have them put my face, (photograph) my name, and my social security number on my voter registration card.

Well, let me see. I already let the bureau of motor vehicles put my face, my name, and my social security number on my driver's license.

I don't like it. I objected at the time when I went to renew my license they just had to ask for the last four digits. But I did it, and I got the license to drive, so now I can if I want because the state said I could.

Now those damn college students have shown they can vote twice in different states using their own names.

Maybe they can use my name as I noted above, my maiden name.

So am I willing to have my name, my face, my social security number on my state-issued voter registration card.

Well no - not the social security number. Please, please, not a number connected to my face, my name.

But I already let them do this, Todd. For the crappy purposes of "driving a car" around my littered, potholed state.

How far am I willing to go to prevent somebody else from committing voter fraud.

The distance? Let them put my face my name and my social security number on my voter registration card?

All so I can vote on crappy voting machines which one never knows what what actually counted?

All even when the state can't even get their database of voter registrants updated to exclude those who are deceased, and those who have moved out of the state?

Well, no, Todd, I am not willing to have them put my social security number unique to me on a voter registration card which also includes my face and my name.

As your face staring back at me on your post is saying volumes to me, I realize, I am not willing to go that far and I will fight against the social security number with my face and name on a state-issued voter registration card.

I'm still not willing to go and have my driver's license voided, because I really don't care if I drive or not, I'll walk or crawl to go and cast my vote.

so what will I do when PA makes the move as they will, too, for a state-issued voter identity card - that includes my social security number?

I will weigh in on the issue.

I will accept, ok put my face and my name on a state-issued voter id card.

But take my social security number off that card and do it now.

Give me the photo id voter registration card which I take to the polling place on election day.

At that time, and only at that time, you idiots, do you put a number on that card. A number that is connected to me for that election cycle day only.

At the end of the election cycle (because that might include early voting), that number expires.

It's good for that election cycle only.

Next election, I show up with my photo-id voter registration card - another number is stamped on there. Hopefully, by the end of a few years, I'll be able to show should somebody ask that yep, I participated all these times and I am assured that nobody else voted in my name.

They couldn't because my name and face were presented to election officials who stamped that with a random number used for that day only. For that day, one day in time, I was willing to let them identify me so that nobody else could show up wherever and use my face and my name.

Nobody else could use my name because it is connected to my face and that random number.

Databases across the nation have access to me and my identity as having voted that day at so and so place and so and so time.

For that election cycle, I am assured that I could not go anywhere else in the country and try to vote twice as those student's did. I can't vote absentee in one state and I can't turn around and travel to another state where I might be a student and vote twice in my own name.

Nobody else can vote in my name either because of the above.

More importantly, I am assured that nobody else can attempt this type of fraud because of this preventative measure.

No state should be able to permanently identify me by one number, ever.

I'm letting them do it now on the driver's license cause I don't care whether I drive or not.

I do mind if they do it on a permanent voter registration card with my name and my face.

There is much that is totally un-American about that.

And we should all be fighting against that.

That's why, as I'm writing this, I am thinking of a letter to write to my state representative and senator who may be considering a voter id situation in the future.

This measure was rejected in the past here in PA.

With the safeguards I mentioned, no social security number on the voter registration card with name and face, I do believe a photo voter id will help to prevent voter fraud.

With the social security number on it however it is an affront to the rights we all inherently possess.